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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 15, 2015 0:30:48 GMT
Hi everyone! This thread's for all you awesome playtesters and rules tweakers out there. Find a rule confusing? Post up a thread, or reply to this here. Think something could do with a tweak - pop it here! Everyone can feel free to reply, help out, give other suggestions and so on! It all adds to the fun, and the quality of the final book!
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Post by jazzybear on Sept 15, 2015 3:49:21 GMT
Things I may have missed... Speed of Infected and length of time in a round?
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 15, 2015 16:07:31 GMT
Hi Jazzy,
Speed is basically determined by your Dexterity / Athletics attributes. People run at a similar speed by and large (unless their stats are super low or high), so rolling those checks will determine if you gain on someone, or vice versa. You could also roll Strength/Athletics for flat-out sprints, and Con/Athletics for long-distance. So the Infected are basically human-speed!
Time in a round is a flexible thing. From 6 seconds to 10, or maybe more! We try to keep it flexible - a bit like Dr Who's version of time being a Flibbity Flobbity thing!
Best, Oliver
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Post by pappadoc on Sept 15, 2015 22:28:00 GMT
looking under circumstances. "Wealty" ... how can that be effectively used in a play setting?. I.E. - character has 10 cows and the narrator says that infected or government soldiers eat the cows. Do you give back points like it *cough ( Cortex rules ) that if points are spent and the points are lost, destroyed, after one session that they get those points back or get another 10 cows somehow?.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 16, 2015 2:03:41 GMT
Hi Richard,
Hmm.. well I personally did not tend to do that, though it's not a bad idea. I really do think that the Narrator should bear in mind that the player has actually SPENT points on this stuff, and so it's not something that you should just destroy immediately. That would suck. And would mean it was just a loss of experience. That's usually how I play it... using logic to make it a valuable part of the story. It doesn't necessarily seem to make sense otherwise!
There is also the cool point about being wealthy - and then needing to hang on to that wealth, which can be a story in itself!
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Post by Andreas on Sept 16, 2015 10:01:49 GMT
Okay, so question on circumstances. They have Levels, like Ally. 1 to 10. So how is that bought? You have 1 point, 5 point, 10 point. Ect. it dosent make sense to be 10 points per level when 10 point for a level 1 according to the book is still crappy. Or is it 1 Point per level up to level 10 which would be a total of 10 Points?
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Post by terrement on Sept 16, 2015 14:00:26 GMT
Regarding the wealth = 10 cows example, if you had an inexperienced GM who did this, and then realized the mistake, the GM could account for the loss in ways other than "Hey look! There's just short of a dozen cows over there!!" It will depend a lot in terms of the economics of the game you are playing. For example, a group in a large settlement / town / small city will likely by now have some sort of local currency being used this many years after the event, though barter flea markets are still likely. In other areas, "wealth" could equate to "something worth something" that could be used to "buy" something, or, a skill/knowledge for which someone will pay (preferably not in cows). Examples could be: Urban: a. local money b. tangible assets that convey "wealth" such as the equivalent of gold, silver, diamonds c. connections, which could either get you out of a tough spot or get you in to someplace you might not be able to go. So, that guy who was limping and you fixed his foot wound tells you he's the game equivalent of the desk sergeant at the city's law enforcement, and if you get pulled in, he's your (some small number of) get out of jail free cards. This is not only a general insurance policy, it allows the game to set up opportunities that carry greater risks with corresponding greater rewards knowing that if caught, you have an out. Getting in could mean into a place where the better things are sold,usually only accessible to the movers and shakers and well-connected folks, or in to see a certain official on an issue where you otherwise would never be high enough on the list, or get you head of the line at the emergency room for that injury for which your group knows the meds you need but does not have them. d. contacts, where you now learn (and can both use and sell access or be the middle man) of WHICH person you go to to get the fake ID you need, or WHO is the unlicenced dealer of stuff that is in town but is the only one who might have the part you need to repair that highly effective but in need of repair crossbow, or which of the five town leaders can be bribed at what cost and up to what level before they get ancy, and which one to never approach e. a piece of usable kit, especially if it is something that the group does not have and that will be a significant improvement for the owner - field guide to edible wild plants, or same for medicinal plants. Maps or atlas to a region that is pretty unknown. That Army fieldcraft book on how to make better improvised shelters in the wild. Just about anything, tailorable to your game situation.
Non-Urban a. Valuable commodities that are in short supply there, regardless of how available they are in town. This could be anything from dried rations, Medi-paks, canteens, source of fresh water, a cache of footwear, a compass, mini solar camp stoves, etc. b. A companion NPC who can provide a service / needed skill for the next major portion of the trip which will help your group immensely and which would normally cost gear that you would be loathe to give up. c. An animal companion. Whether this is a horse / mule / camel to help carry things, or a dog that can scout ahead, track, and or be an alarm system, or a predatory bird (falcon, hawk, etc.) or hunting cat (thinking in terms of smaller preds like bobcats or lynx, not lions or tigers) that can help feed you.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 16, 2015 14:11:37 GMT
Andreas: The levels of Circumstances are purchased just like Skills. So a level 5 Circumstance would cost 30 Exp to purchase. I think it could be worded better in the book! So I will endeavour to get that clearer very shortly. terrement: Great points mate. Those are spot-on! I could certainly use some of those concepts for the final descriptions in the book (and to give Narrators more concepts of how to use it). Cheers mate! I think in general, the Circumstances can and should be used to not only flesh out a character, but also assist with the story that they're running, including getting them into and out of situations - they should, as terrement said, enable them to get into more dangerous situations, with the knowledge that they have an out (or it gets them in there when it would otherwise be impossible - i.e. the guy who opens the security door for them to sneak in). Super cool.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 16, 2015 14:32:04 GMT
Okay playtesters, here's a rule change we're working through!
*Dynamic Initiative*
In the book at present, it states that you roll for Initiative every round. That's all well and good for 1-2 players, but for 3+ it starts to slow down the combats unnecessarily. And there's a really good alternative that doesn't sacrifice the immediacy or intensity of the situation. The whole point of rolling every round is because otherwise one person is always having to sacrifice their actions to make a defensive roll (though doing multi-actions is certainly recommended - i.e. attack/defend).
Here's the new system: Dynamic Initiative is rolled for once at the beginning of the combat, and that order is maintained. You don't roll again each round. You also don't declare what you're doing at the beginning of the round. You just say what you're doing when you make your roll. This gives lower order initiatives some advantages too. HOWEVER, you CAN do things to change your Initiative order.
If you make a Defensive action (like Dodging or Parrying, or Blocking, or running away), and beat your attacker's roll by 4 successes or more, then you have done a pretty cool manoeuvre, and have gained the upper hand. You might have ducked his swing then come up for a brutal counter-hook, or you tumble to the side and expose him to a knee kick, or stepped around the corner and then doubled-back to shoot at him with a sudden surprise. In this case, your Initiative is now ABOVE your attacker's. He or she doesn't go last, they just go below you. It is certainly best to describe this as much as possible - the player should say what their character is doing with the Defensive Action, which then gives them the advantage. This will make the combat more dynamic, and will give them the opportunity for better attacks. I.e. if they duck a punch, then they might be in a perfect spot to tackle the attacker, or give them a hook to the jaw - or whatever. Generally, it's best to give some variety to the type of attacks (it adds interest), rather than just doing a general strike fest.
Now, here's the other way of changing the Initiative. You can disrupt the other person's attack. This is done by affecting the other character with some sort of attack. Like kicking a table into their shins, or kicking them in the groin, pushing them over, poking them in the eye, or doing anything that the Narrator feels would stagger them, stop them or stun them for a second (there are various attacks that stun, blind, choke, etc., in the rules, but the Narrator should adjudicate according to logic). The person making this disruptive attack would probably need to do a multi-action to manage this (i.e. Defend the attack coming in, then strike back), or they could just take the incoming attack (eat the bullet), then attack back. Again, the disruptive attack would have to be successful in order to work.
So, for example, Zane is being attacked by a Cannibal, who has higher Initiative. The cannibal swings a club at Zane's head. He decides to Dodge the club, then kick the Cannibal in the shins (a multi-action, with -2 to the first roll and -3 to the second). He manages to just duck the cannibal's swing, then succeeds in kicking the cannibal with 4 successes. This staggers the cannibal, knocking him back for a moment - just long enough for Zane to gain the Initiative, step back and draw his pistol.
The last way this could work is with disengagement. You put enough space between you that the combat is interrupted. You jump a barrier, you leap across a gap between buildings, you push your attacker out a window (then jump after them). At the Narrator's discretion, at any time he can have everyone in the combat (or any two characters) re-roll their Initiative. This should really only be done for dramatic effect, and not for simple book keeping "because you have to." Do what feels easy, organic and logical.
So that's how it works guys! I've just made a video going over it as well, which I think will even better communicate my thoughts on it. It's meant to be a very organic, very dynamic system. Use logic to determine when someone gains the upper hand or not. Don't sit there pondering it for long - it should be instantaneous. They made it, or they didn't. It's also meant to make the combats varies - like something out of a movie. You don't just keep slugging at each other! Instead you use your environment - duck the punch, kick the table into your attacker's shins, grab a pot, smack him in the head with it, push them down the stairs, wrestle for the gun... etc., etc.
Let me know what you think!
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Post by pappadoc on Sept 17, 2015 3:42:05 GMT
Andreas: The levels of Circumstances are purchased just like Skills. So a level 5 Circumstance would cost 30 Exp to purchase. I think it could be worded better in the book! So I will endeavour to get that clearer very shortly. terrement: Great points mate. Those are spot-on! I could certainly use some of those concepts for the final descriptions in the book (and to give Narrators more concepts of how to use it). Cheers mate! I think in general, the Circumstances can and should be used to not only flesh out a character, but also assist with the story that they're running, including getting them into and out of situations - they should, as terrement said, enable them to get into more dangerous situations, with the knowledge that they have an out (or it gets them in there when it would otherwise be impossible - i.e. the guy who opens the security door for them to sneak in). Super cool. I would like to see that the "character" doesn't lose the points. That was what I was going after but I like what I did see. It reminded me alot of Cortext, Gurps and other rule system that handled that way. But once again... could you define that so people would understand that they don't lose that assets. Thanks
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Post by pappadoc on Sept 17, 2015 3:44:57 GMT
Hi Richard, Hmm.. well I personally did not tend to do that, though it's not a bad idea. I really do think that the Narrator should bear in mind that the player has actually SPENT points on this stuff, and so it's not something that you should just destroy immediately. That would suck. And would mean it was just a loss of experience. That's usually how I play it... using logic to make it a valuable part of the story. It doesn't necessarily seem to make sense otherwise! There is also the cool point about being wealthy - and then needing to hang on to that wealth, which can be a story in itself! But that is why I would personally like to see that little bit added. Not the don't be a dick Narrator... but the points are not lost!. So what your saying is that it's ok to mess over your "leper" after this first game, right? *Just kidding... But I understand that life isn't fair... always.
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Post by pappadoc on Sept 17, 2015 3:52:47 GMT
Regarding the wealth = 10 cows example, if you had an inexperienced GM who did this, and then realized the mistake, the GM could account for the loss in ways other than "Hey look! There's just short of a dozen cows over there!!" It will depend a lot in terms of the economics of the game you are playing. For example, a group in a large settlement / town / small city will likely by now have some sort of local currency being used this many years after the event, though barter flea markets are still likely. In other areas, "wealth" could equate to "something worth something" that could be used to "buy" something, or, a skill/knowledge for which someone will pay (preferably not in cows). Examples could be: Urban: a. local money b. tangible assets that convey "wealth" such as the equivalent of gold, silver, diamonds c. connections, which could either get you out of a tough spot or get you in to someplace you might not be able to go. So, that guy who was limping and you fixed his foot wound tells you he's the game equivalent of the desk sergeant at the city's law enforcement, and if you get pulled in, he's your (some small number of) get out of jail free cards. This is not only a general insurance policy, it allows the game to set up opportunities that carry greater risks with corresponding greater rewards knowing that if caught, you have an out. Getting in could mean into a place where the better things are sold,usually only accessible to the movers and shakers and well-connected folks, or in to see a certain official on an issue where you otherwise would never be high enough on the list, or get you head of the line at the emergency room for that injury for which your group knows the meds you need but does not have them. d. contacts, where you now learn (and can both use and sell access or be the middle man) of WHICH person you go to to get the fake ID you need, or WHO is the unlicenced dealer of stuff that is in town but is the only one who might have the part you need to repair that highly effective but in need of repair crossbow, or which of the five town leaders can be bribed at what cost and up to what level before they get ancy, and which one to never approach e. a piece of usable kit, especially if it is something that the group does not have and that will be a significant improvement for the owner - field guide to edible wild plants, or same for medicinal plants. Maps or atlas to a region that is pretty unknown. That Army fieldcraft book on how to make better improvised shelters in the wild. Just about anything, tailorable to your game situation. Non-Urban a. Valuable commodities that are in short supply there, regardless of how available they are in town. This could be anything from dried rations, Medi-paks, canteens, source of fresh water, a cache of footwear, a compass, mini solar camp stoves, etc. b. A companion NPC who can provide a service / needed skill for the next major portion of the trip which will help your group immensely and which would normally cost gear that you would be loathe to give up. c. An animal companion. Whether this is a horse / mule / camel to help carry things, or a dog that can scout ahead, track, and or be an alarm system, or a predatory bird (falcon, hawk, etc.) or hunting cat (thinking in terms of smaller preds like bobcats or lynx, not lions or tigers) that can help feed you. I like that how you think!
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 17, 2015 11:18:33 GMT
Haha pappadoc, yes indeed I understand that I am sticking my leper's neck under your rather large axe! Another way I have often run Circumstances, is to count them like another stat. So if you start snooping around looking for information, you might roll Charisma/Investigation/Contacts - (roll 3 dice). Or you could roll Luck/Contacts to see if you have a contact in that region - OR the contacts could give you a bonus to your roll. It's possible Wealth and such could be used the same way - but I'm not sure exactly how. That's the thing with Experience coming back after losing equipment or something like that... it just doesn't quite add up to me. I prefer to use it to set the stage for the characters. Give them context, etc. However... terrement made a great example just before. That's really cool. The question is, if you had a Wealth of 10 and you kept on having epic stuff, wherever you went, that could start to be overpowered. So you would have to temper it somehow. Though of course, I think from your example, you're just meaning that it would come back in that way only if the GM got rid of it all a bit too hastily (which make you wonder... how soon is too soon for stuff to break?). The other thing is that Wealth, Equipment, etc., should be destructible, otherwise players won't treat them with the value that they should. Because there's always something new about to come around the corner! Btw, all this talk of Circumstances got me thinking of a cool concept (maybe for my char with you pappadoc). A character with 10 Wealth, who has a screaming fortune on his hands... but virtually nothing else. So maybe he stole it, or "acquired" it, and is now on the run. Or he got it legitimately, but is rapidly the target of every conman, thief and beggar in the area. It could even be something more epic... like nuclear launch codes for a silo! Now that's power, in the right hands!
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Post by pappadoc on Sept 17, 2015 18:04:34 GMT
I like the idea...
first thing is that me must defend it, true!. That is where I like to have others help. Like in another role playing game "Champions".
I.E. - former military contractor Base or something like that...
Leper has 10 wealth points and becomes a "Hard Holder"... what is a hard holder?. A person that controls a area through power, fear or maybe accessibility. Hard Holders sit pretty and usually have a large cashe, maybe with a point for point instal a water source, power source and other comforts. Your character is fat, dumb and happy... till.
No threat
But that isn't fun
so I then ask, what is your characters next move because you have a "limited" endurance. supplies run low after a few years, you never leave you sanctum. I then use mental rolls... why because you made yourself your own private prison. Mental fatigue or other mental problem due to lack of social contact. But wait.. I use a radio and spent another point during character creation!. Fine... The government wants their facility back now as a stepping stone to rebuild *insert your country here*. Maybe they know of a secret "emergency" way to get in?. Lots of fun things to force or coerce a character into. Many facets to use and I love who other people think and tell me about a backstory!. I like to get from my players what do they want to try to accomplish in the next year?. Raise crops, visit aunt gina, wrestle alligators and rob the high end store for that fancy car that I never could afford.
1. Have fun... otherwise why would you play?. 2. I hope to be semi realistic in role play. 3. I hope that my players have fun building a character that they enjoy and spinning yarns for me to build off of... 4. Accomplish something... maybe they are a gearhead and they build / mod a car like Mad Max and race all over Downtown saving other survivors, transporting medicine for fuel from one town to another. 5. Build an epic adventure! So with "wealth" we came do and make things.... as long as the player doesn't lose points, I'm happy with it. If not.. I'll add it to my "home brew" sheet.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Sept 18, 2015 14:41:19 GMT
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