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Post by solitare on Nov 4, 2015 17:38:22 GMT
Hi all,
Just a quick post, first to say I'm loving the system and I am currently working on a short intro adventure for my gaming group.
As a group we all love the world of the walking dead, and more modern settings. Moreover myself being a complete zombie nut, post apocalyptic adventure military sim fan.
With this in mind I'm looking to pull aspects of twilight 2013 and marry some of the feel and grittyness together. I have a few player who are kit monkeys and like to have everything listed hence They like the rules of twilight 2013 for gold barter value etc. Though I love the system of 2013 it's way number crunchy and too involved and you lose the roleplay.
This is was one of the aspects the players wanted more of In the infected rules ( I did stress it was a play test) one player pointed out that he could not see a money value for items bar the use of circumstances in the initial generation. For bartering and trade as a group of survivors.
With that said all are loving the system and looking forward to a game very soon.
Thinking the the last military outpost, in an area to stand influx of refugees the onwards of the game would be the general survival of the group and maybe the outpost. The group sent out on scavenger runs and later on missions to find a cure!!!!!!!!
Will keep you updated when we start, any advise would be welcomed.
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nails
New Member
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Post by nails on Nov 4, 2015 22:27:56 GMT
Hey looking forward to hearing how the story goes.
So far I have found that monetary value of items for comparison is null and void. I believe this is the case because of the circumstances of the world as granted food, water etc is prized of money etc. and some area may prize certain things more than others would the value of the item would be useless.
eg. the settlement of Waybridge may have meat and water as its most prized items unlike the village of Split Oak may put the likes of water and seeds for growing crops at the same value.
I suppose this is where the barter system comes in and their ability to roleplay it out.
If the issue is working out value in regards for kitting out characters the circumstances bit starts to give some idea in regards to how to value items in EXP terms on character creation. Although I do find this still quite vague and difficult to work out.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Nov 7, 2015 11:27:48 GMT
Hey @solitaire, glad you're liking the game!  That's a great point, and something I've been looking into, because a few people have mentioned that they like to kit out their characters. What I normally do is just work out what seems about right. In the new version of the rules (I'll be sending out a copy of the latest chapter shortly - stay tuned), I've got more examples for the "Weapons" Circumstance. But personally I don't like to be too granular. I have had a few players take "10" on Equipment, and just want to list out half a dozen weapons, a couple of vehicles, a fortress house/home and so on. I had no problem with it, and just told them to go for it. But that's my personal preference. That being said, I agree with nails that it could be a bit more specific. I guess my stumbling block on that is that as nails has said, there really isn't a "money" system anymore. Though perhaps I should work out some sort of brief stat that could work that out for everyone? It could add a bit more depth to trading and all that! We could do a 1-5 system. Things cost "1" or "2" or "3" as a rough comparison. Each would be quite a lot more expensive than the last. These could, of course, be made a 1-10 system too. Which might be better. But check out below and see what you think first. 1 = Cheap stuff. 4 litres of clean water, a dozen bullets, a knife, a bottle of alcohol, some minor medications, a litre of oil, ten litres of petrol, one week's accomodation, food for a week, a solid silver coin, half a day's labour. 2 = Moderate stuff. 20 litres of clean water, a hundred bullets, a dozen bottles of alcohol, fairly extensive medication, ten litres of oil, fifty litres of petrol, a donkey, a handgun, food for a month, one month's accommodation, a small building in a community, a gem, half a pound of silver, a week's labour. 3 = Expensive stuff. An assault rifle, five hundred bullets, a cow, a dozen chickens, five goats, a car, two hundred litres of petrol, good body armour, a house, a pound of silver, several gems, a solid gold coin, a slave, six months' labour. 4 = Top-of-the-range stuff. A hum-vee, a sniper rifle, several thousand bullets, a pound of gold, four pounds of silver, a dozen gems, an extensive property, a dozen cows, several hundred chickens, half a dozen slaves, several years' labour. 5 = King's ransom. A tank, a large and wealthy property, fifty slaves, ten pounds of gold, forty pounds of silver, fifty gems, an arsenal of weapons, a fleet of lesser vehicles, a large herd of cows. Of course, it could be made more granular than that. If so, I think we would have to come up with some form of currency. What do you reckon so far? |
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Post by solitare on Nov 7, 2015 13:16:14 GMT
Hey @solitaire, glad you're liking the game! That's a great point, and something I've been looking into, because a few people have mentioned that they like to kit out their characters. What I normally do is just work out what seems about right. In the new version of the rules (I'll be sending out a copy of the latest chapter shortly - stay tuned), I've got more examples for the "Weapons" Circumstance. But personally I don't like to be too granular. I have had a few players take "10" on Equipment, and just want to list out half a dozen weapons, a couple of vehicles, a fortress house/home and so on. I had no problem with it, and just told them to go for it. But that's my personal preference. That being said, I agree with nails that it could be a bit more specific. I guess my stumbling block on that is that as nails has said, there really isn't a "money" system anymore. Though perhaps I should work out some sort of brief stat that could work that out for everyone? It could add a bit more depth to trading and all that! We could do a 1-5 system. Things cost "1" or "2" or "3" as a rough comparison. Each would be quite a lot more expensive than the last. These could, of course, be made a 1-10 system too. Which might be better. But check out below and see what you think first. 1 = Cheap stuff. 4 litres of clean water, a dozen bullets, a knife, a bottle of alcohol, some minor medications, a litre of oil, ten litres of petrol, one week's accomodation, food for a week, a solid silver coin, half a day's labour. 2 = Moderate stuff. 20 litres of clean water, a hundred bullets, a dozen bottles of alcohol, fairly extensive medication, ten litres of oil, fifty litres of petrol, a donkey, a handgun, food for a month, one month's accommodation, a small building in a community, a gem, half a pound of silver, a week's labour. 3 = Expensive stuff. An assault rifle, five hundred bullets, a cow, a dozen chickens, five goats, a car, two hundred litres of petrol, good body armour, a house, a pound of silver, several gems, a solid gold coin, a slave, six months' labour. 4 = Top-of-the-range stuff. A hum-vee, a sniper rifle, several thousand bullets, a pound of gold, four pounds of silver, a dozen gems, an extensive property, a dozen cows, several hundred chickens, half a dozen slaves, several years' labour. 5 = King's ransom. A tank, a large and wealthy property, fifty slaves, ten pounds of gold, forty pounds of silver, fifty gems, an arsenal of weapons, a fleet of lesser vehicles, a large herd of cows. Of course, it could be made more granular than that. If so, I think we would have to come up with some form of currency. What do you reckon so far? That would work very well, for the creation of characters and not taking to much away from role play.. I would love to see a value for items and barter items.. This would help with finding salvage etc Looking good... |
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Post by Andreas on Nov 7, 2015 14:26:08 GMT
It needs to be more Granular. A chart of something, like the Top 5 Trade Goods we can work out. The Top of the List should be a Gold Value. We as players need something more than points to base our character building on, and as the new guy says, to base what we find on. This points stuff you keep doing Oliver, once again is proof that you are still set on points. A monetary value needs to be set for each point. Also, given that you are in Australia and yet want the game to be based in the United States has made things difficult. Take your level 3.
3 = Expensive stuff. An assault rifle, five hundred bullets, a cow, a dozen chickens, five goats, a car, two hundred litres of petrol, good body armour, a house, a pound of silver, several gems, a solid gold coin, a slave, six months' labour.
It's getting there. Not quite on the head, but a better step in the right direction. You need to add money on that so people can get an idea of the price range. Put something like. 'Items in this price Range would cost from "X" to "X" pre apocalypse." or better yet put a Money Value/GoldValue/TradeValue
To establish the Trade Value though, we have to agree on a few Generally Valued goods.
I would put up these five things as Currency. They are not in any particular order)
Fresh Untainted Water in Ounces (Depends on how prevalent water is in the area)
Grams of Gold (yes, even in an apocalypse, people will want wealth. It's the human condition of Greed)
Pre-Apocalypse Money (yes, people will still covet bills and coins)
Ounces of Food (Food is a Mainstay, and this could cover everything from canned goods to Fresh slain meat so long as we have a measurement value. I'd say Ounces.)
Hours of Labor (Yes, this one sounds weird, but It's basically offering a service done for an Item needed, however, it does play up the skills aspect rather nicely.)
These would be good Markers to show Value, and provide an in game trade chart. If a Community is not trading for a Certain item, you just tell your players.
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Post by omegaa6977 on Nov 7, 2015 17:49:39 GMT
I personally like not haveing a price for each item. Many times I've gotten lost in the numbers. Haveing a system where points get you X items around this level at the storyteller's discretion fast tracks character creation, at least for me. After character creation I think this game is more about bartering rather than shopping at a store, I personally want to keep it that way in my games, but each storyteller has a different thought and I won't tell someone how to run their game.
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Post by Andreas on Nov 7, 2015 20:59:26 GMT
The problem is that Oliver's system does not take into account the fact that the United States (Where he ahs it set as far as the main book is concerned) is a nation of Preppers. For example, he actually tried to say that Ammo after 25 years would be rare... PappaDoc and I had to tell him "No, no it won't. Not in the least."
Weapons are more likely to break down due to lack of proper maintenance and storage, than ammo run out.
He is getting closer on his numbers for level, but I and others like me want some more crunch to the game, not T2013 level Crunch, but still, more than it's got. We are Gear Monkeys and Will make lists showing every last Nth item we have, and there needs to be a way to let us do that, Otherwise I have put waaay too much money into a game that will just sit on my shelf at best, or get sold off to someone for 5$ at worst.
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Post by pappadoc on Nov 8, 2015 2:02:42 GMT
Late welcomes to:
Omega and solitare.
Its a game, do what you want to feel comfortable but I prefer realism and that is how I like to play. Its not for everyone and the things that I like you or your group might like not like. Since 1980s I have deployed to many different places around the globe for the past 20+ years, the experiences are mine and mine alone. Yours might be different so who is to say what is right and wrong. If you don't like something, please feel free to post your likes, dislikes, bitchin, moans and whines. But what helps the most is having a solution that you can share with the group. This is where great ideas are born as a group that shares.
Supply and demand is perhaps one of the most fundamental concepts of economics and it is the backbone of a market economy. Demand refers to how much (quantity) of a product or service is desired by buyers. The quantity demanded is the amount of a product people are willing to buy at a certain price; the relationship between price and quantity demanded is known as the demand relationship. Supply represents how much the market can offer. The quantity supplied refers to the amount of a certain good producers are willing to supply when receiving a certain price. The correlation between price and how much of a good or service is supplied to the market is known as the supply relationship. Price, therefore, is a reflection of supply and demand.
The Law of Demand
The law of demand states that, if all other factors remain equal, the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good. In other words, the higher the price, the lower the quantity demanded. The amount of a good that buyers purchase at a higher price is less because as the price of a good goes up, so does the opportunity cost of buying that good. As a result, people will naturally avoid buying a product that will force them to forgo the consumption of something else they value more.
The Law of Supply
Like the law of demand, the law of supply demonstrates the quantities that will be sold at a certain price. But unlike the law of demand, the supply relationship shows an upward slope. This means that the higher the price, the higher the quantity supplied. Producers supply more at a higher price because selling a higher quantity at a higher price increases revenue.
In short, enjoy the game. Try different things, see what works for you.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Nov 8, 2015 2:27:11 GMT
Hey guys,
Well it's interesting that everyone has different play styles!
I think the main issue with granularity is that it is virtually impossible to categorise the cost of objects accurately. Because "cost" varies depending on supply and demand. Prices rise, they fall, they balloon, they peak, they gutter. For instance, house prices in Sydney have done up like 50% in 5 years. Crazy!
That being said, I'm sure there should be a simple way to get more granularity in there for those who want it.
The issue with ammo I think is that after 5 years of civil war, what ammo is available is jealously protected. There would, of course, be merchants and delvers who go to crack open the old warehouses. But a LOT of stuff would have been used, blown up or lost in the outbreak. It's not the walking dead after all - nukes have been dropped, cities carpet bombed, whole armies turned on each other.
That being said, I think it would still be possible to get a fair amount of ammo, and I've even played fully military games, with tanks, hummers, heavy machineguns and artillery being unleashed.
As Andreas says, weapon break down would also be a real issue.
The thing is, I'm fine if people want to have more guns, or less guns in their settings. No problemo.
Anyways, what we should look at in terms of granularity then is what basic items would cost. Things would cost differently in this day and age, and it would drastically vary from town to town - for instance, one town has heaps of soap and it's of no value, but another town has none and really wants some to reduce infection. Boom. Profit margin!
What I would like is if we could get a big list of tradeable items. That would help me out a lot actually. So if you guys have some thoughts, pop it down under here.
Some basics:
1 day of labour (don't think people would count hours so much anymore): $100 equivalent. Let's say that's 10 trade points/credits
1 gram of gold (about the size of a SIM card) = 10 trade credits
50 grams of silver (about 1.5 ounces - one and a half silver coins) = 10 trade credits
1 day's accommodation = 5 trade credits
1 chicken = 30 trade credits
5 eggs = 1 credit
1 average meal = 1 credit
1 common-calibre bullet = 1 credit (for more bullet-rareness you could make this 5 credits)
1 uncommon-calibre bullet = 5 credits (this could be 25 credits for more bullet-scarce environs)
1 litre of filtered water = 1 credit
1 bottle of poor quality liquor = 3 credits
1 bottle of medium quality liquor = 6 credits
1 bottle of higher quality liquor = 15 credits
1 goat = 500 credits
1 pig = 700 credits
1 donkey = 1000 credits
1 pack horse = 3000 credits
1 well trained attack dog = 5,000 credits
1 common low-calibre pistol = 500 credits
1 empty magazine = 100 credits
1 small, working car = 1000 credits
1 large, working car = 3000 credits
1 hum vee = 10,000 credits
1 assault rifle = 1000 credits
1 hunting rifle = 600 credits
1 grenade = 400 credits
And so on.
Thoughts?
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Post by pappadoc on Nov 8, 2015 3:30:30 GMT
I could work with that...
Looks good to me.
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Post by Andreas on Nov 8, 2015 6:00:32 GMT
Hmmm... Trade Credits. Interesting Idea. Now, can you apply that to the Book for Buying Stuff. I mean How Many Credits would a Person get for say Equipment Level 5? See Im thinking it like this.
Levels
1-2 1 t 2,000 Tarde Credits
3-4 3 to 4,000 Trade Credits
5-6 5 to 6,000 Trade credits
7-8 7 to 8,000 Trade Credits
9-10 9 to 10,000 Trade credits
Then you have the list of Items a Person can get, and how many Trade Credits Each item Costs, and they basically can make their equipment list as detailed as they want. It adds a bit more crunch for those of us that want it while not making thongs super complicated.
And trust me, 2,000 Trade Credits, will be spent like water flowing through fingers.
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Post by Andreas on Nov 9, 2015 8:21:32 GMT
Ok, I'll get a List going this coming weekend. Perhaps sooner. T2013 has a Great List of Equipment going to mine for names of stuff, and before anyone says anything, NO.... Oliver CAN NOT be sued just for using the names of itesm that you could easily use google to find. T2013 just has them already found.
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Post by solitare on Nov 9, 2015 11:05:03 GMT
Ok, I'll get a List going this coming weekend. Perhaps sooner. T2013 has a Great List of Equipment going to mine for names of stuff, and before anyone says anything, NO.... Oliver CAN NOT be sued just for using the names of itesm that you could easily use google to find. T2013 just has them already found. Hi Andreas, just to say I was nice of enough to have a space copy of T2013 pdf laying around and have given it to Oliver to have a scan through..... I also wanted to say I do like the idea of credit / trade values in which characters could spend as they wish if you need a hand compiling give me a shout. This brings me on to another point which I had a chat with Oliver about late into the night (I'm in U.K), repair and building of settlements/structures.. This is key to moving forward in some form of society not just surviving. T2013 did handle this well but yet again too crunchy.. This rebuilding would/could have a direct link to the type of fundamental things found in the settlement and the aspects/quality of the settlement. also the time taken and teh trade credits or scrap need to e used must also be factored in. im still think how this would link.. i hate to say it but much like the downtime rule for pathfinder d20.. or savage words home brew repair items and stuff This is a good house rule for post-apocalypse games where running vehicles are increasingly rare. From Emiricol;
off the Savage Worlds Savagpidea
Maintenance Number: Each vehicle has a Base Maintenance Number. This is the number of hours per week that should be spent in routine maintenance. This number ranges from 2 for a HUMMV or full-size pickup/civilian car, 4 for a semi truck, 8 for an M2 Bradley, all the way up to 14 for an M1A2 Abrams main battle tank.
Wear Value: This is a d10 that determines the condition of a vehical. Divide the base price by the wear value to determine cost of a vehicle when trying to buy or sell. (Thus, full price is for a wear value of 1, excellent condition).
Breaking Down: Every day a vehicle travels, roll 1d10 - if it is equal or less than the wear value it has a potential breakdown. Avoiding the breakdown is a skill roll at -1 by the last character to perform routine maintenance on the vehicle. If the required preventative maintenance was not performed, the potential breakdown is automatically an actual breakdown.
Preventative Maintenance: Mechanics can spend more time than the Base Maintenance Number in routine maintenance. Spending twice the time will cut the potential breakdown possibility in half.
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Post by Andreas on Nov 9, 2015 11:27:32 GMT
You gave him a PDF Copy? Thats funny, becase I gave him every T2013 PDF I had. Maybe he lost them. *Shrugs* Anyways, I think that Repair deal, which is also in T2013 BTW, is a great idea, but I think it can be a little simpler while still maintaining crunch.
Each Vehicle has a Maintenance Value, say 10 for a Hummer for example, and a Day Interval, in number of days a Vehicle can go before needing work done, say 14 days (2 Weeks). So every 14 days the group has to stop and do maintenance on the hummer. For every day beyond 14 that they skip maintenance, the dificulty goes up by 1. So 1 day past is not a bad thing, but 5 days or more, and that Difficuklty 10 turns into 15 or more. They fail, then at some point within the next Day Interval, the vehickle will break down.
Im sure we all can think it out better.
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Post by Oliver R Shead on Nov 9, 2015 11:57:38 GMT
Hey all, Yeah thanks solitaire! I appreciate your input. I've had a (brief) read through the tome that is T2013. It is certainly written by a military expert! I like it a lot actually, though I do find the level of granularity they go into is a bit too much for me. I had a read through the Morrow Project as well, lent to me by PappaDoc, and I found that pretty similar (though I think T2013 wins that one by virtue of its MASSIVE detail on the world - some awesome ideas from this). I think that vehicle and weapon maintenance will have to be even simpler than this, though that's a good first step. I'm certainly liking where this is going. Glad you liked the Trade Credits idea Andreas Hopefully this will end up with a very adaptable and fluid system, that can give more or less granularity, depending on your style of play. Because no two people play exactly the same way, and I've always intended Immersion to be really adaptable, so everyone can enjoy it the way they like it. Really, the basic principles of the game are already there, just waiting for customisers to come in and play! haha. I'm 90% finished on the char creation chapter as of tonight, and I'll be posting it up on the KS updates in the next day or two, along with the new Quickstart Rules that I've put together (taken from the Sampler and the basic rules - this is rules only, no fluff, to get people up to scratch on the system as easily as possible). Any feedback will be greatly appreciated! After that, I'll be chunking into the Equipment chapter (that's a nod to you PappaDoc, hehe), and in that chapter I will likely be going over community building as well, so I'll be showing you my thoughts on it in the coming days, and again, any and all feedback will be appreciated. Cheers! |
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